By Ooze Studios  |   2nd November 20

Jesse Ocean on Fashion Brand Marketing

Jesse Ocean, Founder and Director of Ooze Studios spoke with Carley Johnson, Fashion Wholesale & Brand Launch Expert at Unzipped about the key components of launching and marketing a fashion brand. 

Carley: Welcome to the Unzipped interview series. Should we start by introducing you and telling us about your role and your company and what products and services you sell?

Jesse: Pleasure to be here, Carley, thank you. So, my name is Jesse Ocean. I’m the Founder and Director of Ooze studios. We’re a creative and marketing agency based out of Melbourne, but helping clients globally.

Our focus is on effectively building ROI focused, digital products. So that can be everything from websites and apps, but more importantly, marketing campaigns.

Carley: Right.

Jesse: So making sure that they’re getting bang for a buck back to the customer because that’s how we create these long sustainable relationships because if they make money, we make money. Right? It’s that simple.

Carley: Great! Can we just then take it back a step? So it’s always really interesting to know what’s your background. So. What did you study? What’s been your career today and then what’s driven you to launch Ooze?

Jesse: I suppose I’ve had a bit of an unusual kind of route to, to where I am today.

I did Maths at Uni. Like I’ve always loved data. I’ve always loved figures. And I didn’t quite know how to apply it. So I went into the world of finance and business management. So through that, got my hands dirty with some marketing in-house either there was no one else doing it, or there’s a marketing team, and I was helping them with the analytical side of things.

And so just through self-teaching, I became more and more interested in it. By the time I was 27. I launched my first business. And Ooze is the reincarnation of that first business. And we’ve been doing that for about four years now. So, where, you know, my journey is both coming from finance, business and marketing all combined into one, which I think infuses into the ROI focus.

Carley: Yeah, brilliant. And so this video is specifically to talk more about marketing, so let’s just start with your passion. So what is it about marketing that you absolutely love?

Jesse: Well, as you can probably guess from my description, I love data, right?

I’m a bit geeky about data, but I also understand that not everyone loves data, so I need to be careful about going too deep into it, but essentially, regardless of how much anyone loves or doesn’t love data. Every single business owner or brand owner should be making evidence-based decisions, using facts, data, etcetera. So, to me, it’s like, I see myself as a marketing scientist. Right. And that’s something that I think works really well, with our clients, because we can tell them if something’s worked, if something hasn’t worked and why it hasn’t worked.

If we go out and create campaigns, create landing pages, create email campaigns, etcetera, based on gut feeling, and it goes wrong. We’ve got nothing to fall back on to say, okay, These are the possible reasons why it failed. The reason why it failed is because you based on gut feeling right now.

Obviously, we’ve got a fair amount of experience and expertise to have a good starting point. Still, regardless of your starting point, you should always be making data-driven, evidence-driven decisions. And that’s what I love doing. I love to form a hypothesis. You know, so as an example, I believe, that this target audience, will receive, sorry, will engage well with this type of copy, this type of text, this type of image.

And so we’re going to spend five hundred dollars over the next two weeks, testing that, optimising it all the way through, and we expect to reach this objective of the two weeks. And so, through the data accumulated, during that period, we can then ascertain as to whether we failed or succeeded, but because we made, some data-driven decisions around the start, we know why we failed.

That’s one of the major reasons why I like this is because we’re always becoming better at it. Regardless of at a particular campaign level or even at an, even more minute level, at an ad level, more so at a client level, at an industry level as well.

Carley: Yeah, brilliant. That is a fantastic answer. And yeah, you can clearly tell how much you love it and how much, how much passion you have.

So yeah, lucky clients and that, so let’s move into talking about fashion because that’s my world now. So can you actually describe to start it? What does marketing actually mean in the world of fashion? So that can, for you to answer, could be the methods that they use. Why they should use it, what results from, they can expect from using marketing and fashion.

Jesse: Great question. And so obviously every, every brand is unique, and every brand is going to be staged, right. But there are still underlying principles; whether it be marketing, whether it be business, market validation, whatever it is, there are still underlying principles that apply to no matter what stage you’re at, no matter what niche or,

market segment, you’re trying to communicate with. So really fundamentally the first thing that people forget is that a three-stage macro journey that all, B2C, so business to consumer, customers go through. So if you’re in a fashion brand, your first stage is acquiring new customers, right?

So the acquisition stage. Then the next stage is retention. So actually trying to keep them coming back, and not losing them as a customer, so trying to increase that frequency of purchase. And then that third stage is the upsell, right? So you’ve got, they come in, they bought item X, and you’re trying to, and therefore you can try and sell them by and Y, so whether that’s.

A different accessory, a different dress, a different jacket, whatever it is, because fundamentally like you can’t like they’re all interlinked. Right? You can’t, you can’t cross-sell to a customer. You don’t have.

Carley: Yeah.

Jesse: And you can’t retain a customer. You don’t have. So, so ultimately the it acquisition is the, is the chicken and the egg

all in one. But, it’s also typically the most expensive, right? Because, just by basic business principles, the, the cost of acquisition of a new customer is quite high in comparison to trying to then upsell, or increase frequency of purchase for the current customer. Right. So, so the thing you always need to remember is, okay, what’s the.

Most effective way. So that involves in terms of lowest ad costs in terms of lowest labor costs. So what’s the most effective way to get, get an individual to purchase from you multiple times? And, the answer is always email.  Email is, has always historically, and for the foreseeable future, we’ll always have the highest return on investment because it has the lowest cost because ultimately once you’ve got that one-to-one connection with someone you’ve got their email address, you can send a one-to-one personal connection with someone by their email address.

Once you have that, then you can start to retain them. You can start to. Cross-sell & upsell. What’s really important to remember, that I’ve seen quite a few brands forget, is that just focusing on that acquisition? And they forget actually, they’ve, they’ve spent that money to acquire them, but then not maximizing the value out of them, you know, and this is, you know, you’re not, you’re not pushing anything against them.

You’re not being abusive. They’ve. They’ve come to you. They’ve tried, they’ve trusted your value proposition. They’ve trusted your products. Yeah. They liked it. Right? So they, they already have either full trust or part trust. So all you’re doing is saying, Hey look, have you seen our latest range? Have you seen a latest offer or have you seen a latest bundle?

Whatever it is. And that becomes a very powerful connection because you can actually start to build that, that further connection with someone.

Carley: Yeah. Amazing. Thank you. And I would definitely say from, I’m no marketing expert, but that whole personalization community really is just more and more important now, now that you need to build the trust signals as early as possible.

So, yeah. Fantastic. So I guess, for startups just starting out, if you then talking about that very first process again, would you have any specific methods as in that can be tools that can be, yeah. Again, step by step processes that you think that they should start out with?

Jesse: Absolutely. So this next method we call prelaunch campaigns, right?

So this doesn’t, this doesn’t actually have to just apply to brands that haven’t launched. Right. But it can actually apply to current brands that are launching a new product series or a new, sorry, a new product range or, or a new product in itself. You should always have the mentality of, having a big buildup.

Okay, so if you’re the, the major difference between a prelaunch brand and prelaunch range is that the prelaunch range should ideally already have an email list, even if it’s 200, 500 emails that they would have that email list. So their jobs a little bit easier, but nonetheless by, but the principles still are the same.

So you still want to build your email list, a quality email list, by the way, don’t go out and purchase an email list off the internet. I guarantee you it’s garbage. It hasn’t been checked. Someone’s trying to flog you off. It’s just don’t work, right. At the end of the day, you’re much better off coming here with a strategy to acquire valuable high quality emails.

So people that are actually going to buy from you, rather than going out and buying in bulk and that being garbage, because ultimately people, you know, people, again, forget all leads, all leads are not created equal. Right. And so what I mean by lead is, is basically someone’s email address. That’s a lead, that’s a prospective customer and people, people get really excited.

Oh, I’ve got 10,000 leads. Sorry, that doesn’t mean anything. Right? You can have a million leads and at a 0% conversion rate and you’re still at ground zero, right? There’s also some really famous examples. There are some very, very good email marketers out there that have actually shown that they’ve created a seven-figure a year, revenue model for business with only 200 email addresses.

Carley: Yeah. Wow.

Jesse: So, so what they did is that they found a very particular niche, obviously high sale, sorry, high value products, low frequency sales. But he connected with them really, really well. They pretty much bought every, anything that he presented. And so he sold, I think, $1.5 million in his first year.

So quantity doesn’t mean anything. It’s all about quality. Especially just going back to, to the original point I was trying to make is, step one make sure that you have a good quality email list. So there are multiple ways to build that, competitions, lead magnets. Yeah, there’s a, there’s multiple ways to do it.

There’s a lot of literature online, but ultimately. The more connected you are with your audience, the, the better, the quality of the email address that you’ll capture. And then, so what you can do is, is that once you have the, this email list, and again, even a hundred is a starting place, you know, it can be your friends and family, as long as you have something to start with and you can run it through an email marketing software, so you can test the engagement.

But then you create, let’s just say sometimes it depends, but typically a good lead up is six weeks. So you set out a calendar, you have an email once a week or twice a week. And then as you’re getting closer, it becomes three times a week, four times a week. And as, as you’re counting to launch date, you’re making sure your audience knows that it’s coming and they’re getting excited.

They’re getting really, really excited, whether it’s the offer, whether it’s the value of the goods or service, whatever it is, they’re excited about what’s coming and they know it’s coming, right. Because you as a brand owner, have absolute ginormous amount of competition. Right. I’m talking direct and indirect.

So the fashion industry is very competitive, so, but that’s just one segment, right? You are vying for the eyeballs of your audience at all times, and they’re being bombarded left, right, and center. So you need to stand out, and need to stand out using good copywriting, good images, but also just get back to, honestly, get back to the absolute basics, connect with them.

Carley: Yeah.

Jesse: Imagine your talking one-to-one with someone because that that’s what an email is. Don’t make it fancy. Don’t jazz it up. Don’t add all these images because as soon as someone sees that they know that it’s not one person talking to another, they know they’re being sold to as soon as they’re being, as soon as someone knows they’re being sold to because they get it all the bloody time, not thing, cat delete, archive, whatever it is, make it personal.

And it’s coming from, not from the brand, but from you, the brand owner, people are much more likely to read it.

Carley: Yeah. So so true, fantastic. Yeah, we’ve all had too many sales emails in our lives that, yeah. Again, if you…it’s all about trust, you’ve got to be able to trust the person and very quickly in case you guys don’t understand, can you just quickly say what a lead magnet is?

Jesse: Absolutely. So honestly, there’s, I think the last of my encounter that the last time I saw the complete list. It’s about 150 different variations of different formats.

Carley: Wow. I didn’t even know that.

Jesse: Yeah. So yeah. You’ve got quizzes, calculators reports, white papers, eBooks webinars, live Q and A’s a Facebook closed groups.

Anyway, basically anything that has any value to you and the audience, right, there are multiple different format. So again, marketing is this odd based whereby you need to use the basic underlying principles. But at the same time, you need to not follow the trends. If you follow it, if you follow the trends, you’re just going to be like everyone else.

And you’re not going to stand out. And you’re just going to be part of the white noise in the background. Yeah. Think about, I mean, the, the, the very first thing is research. What your competitors are doing, right? Lead Magnet marketing is not new. A lot of people are doing it. How you do it defines you, defines your brand and defines how successful that campaign is.

So if you can find a cool, innovative, formats in which, to essentially exchange content, because, because that’s all it is, right. All those formats that I just gave you, whether it’s a video, a live Q and A, a calculator. So we’ll just call them it’s is all just repackaged up in different ways, but it’s about what your audience values.

And so if you. If you create the right lead magnet, people will hand that email address at the email address, lot that they’re just like, “Here, you go.” and so you obviously need to bring traffic to that page. So especially for the fashion industry, Instagram and Facebook, very successful, but being proven time and time again.

so you run ads, to. That particular landing page, where it’s got a form, they fill the form out, just name and email, keep it simple. And they get emailed that report or that lead magnet, whatever it is. And then suddenly, you’ve got someone’s email address that is engaged with your brand, that seeing your brand, but it’s also clearly interested in what you’re talking about or what you’re trying to convey.

You know, so it can be anything, you know, in the fashion industry, right? A hot topic is sustainability. It can be anything related to that. It can be, like a, like a pro-fast fashion or an anti-fast fashion industry record. Right. There is so much, you can do trends, that are going to happen in 2021.

Right. Whatever it is, make it relatable. Make, make it have value to someone.

Carley: Yeah. And what would, would you say, like how much is too much, like. How much should a fashion brand be sending and spamming, you could say like, what’s that boundary?

Jesse: Good question. Test it. Honestly, every, every audience is different, right?

So typically the Gen Zs, they use email. But they don’t sort it very well. Their inboxes are cluttered. So you just need to keep on hammering that door. Say, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. Whereas a gen X keeps the inbox pretty tidy. So if you’re bombarding them with emails, they’re gonna get really pissed off because you’ll keep these you’re causing extra work for them.

Right. So very dependent on the, on the audience, but at the end of the day, Use the data. So the most elementary, CRM slash email marketing tool is

MailChimp, very popular for a reason. You get a lot of bang for your buck. It’s very, very entry-level. So no one has any excuses for not doing email marketing, right?

It is there, it’s very easy to use. You’re going to, you’re going to do multiple pre-launch campaigns, because I was saying it’s not just about pre brand launch. It’s also about prearranged launch. And any other thing that you’re trying to launch, so run it once, be a bit aggressive. See what kind of drop off rate you get.

So judging from that drop off rate, if, if you’re getting, if you’re getting by, if you’re getting 10% and unsubscribed, right. That’s very high. Right. So maybe, so that could be one of two reasons. One. The audience just isn’t interested or two you’re being too aggressive. So, just ask yourself and then, you know, there’s things like AB testing, right?

So you can go further in how you can split your audience into two, which, which by the way, just a little tip AB testing you shouldn’t do with less than a poll of a thousand users. If you’re gonna run an AB test with two landing pages and making sure that you send a thousand clicks. Cross you get 500 on each deal.

If you’re gonna do an AB test with emails, make sure that you have a thousand emails, you send 500 to each, just mathematically it’s, it’s not really a significant test unless you have a thousand users, but that’s a really boring data math. You’re welcome. Yeah. So it just kind of backseat, you got your prelaunch email campaign.

You’ve got your, your lead acquisition, bringing people into that campaign, and then around it, depending on, on your product, you might want to do a discount strategy within that. So for some products, some audiences that works for some it doesn’t. Right. So if, if the value. Again, if the value proposition for your customers is the fact that you’re producing, this amazing scarf, but it’s one of the cheapest on the market discount strategy is perfect because the value is in the cost, right.

But if you’re producing a high end, jacket where the value is in the leather, it’s in the quality it’s in, it’s in everything, but the cost and discount strategy, might necessarily work. Right. So it depends, it really does depends. But it’s something that you should test get to know your audience. Every, every brand has a unique audience.

They really do basically think about it. Every brand has got a unique group of individuals and those and that unique group does form a unique, a unique audience. I should say.

Carley: Yeah, definitely. And I guess just to talk about audience, so it kind of goes without saying, but you need to know who your audience is before you really build your business.

It’s one of the fundamental starting points, but yeah, I guess with, once you launched to then post-launch, how, how do you kind of keep in touch with the audience again? I guess the answer is data, but yeah. How frequently should you be really checking in on who is my audience? It’s now how much have they changed and where my ideas of who they are completely wrong now? Any advice around that?

Jesse: Yeah, let’s say,  I say this quite a lot. People, Brand on is full fall into the trap of thinking I’ve got 10,000 Instagram followers. Therefore I’ve got a reach of 10 thousands. You don’t. Okay. They’ve been very, very clever. They being  Facebook and Facebook, well they’re both, have been very clever in monetizing both platforms.

If you want to reach a more than 0.1% of your audience, you need to boost your content. You need to pay for it, which is why emails are so much better because it’s not about a platform controlling how much of the content they see. It is literally a direct line, how do you keep the audience engaged?

Definitely contents, 100% contents. I’m not saying don’t post on social media, definitely do. Keep, keep it, keep it active. But, do not have that as your sole focus. Always, always be looking at ways to engage with the audience in different ways. But, but ultimately we, we as well as pretty much the whole industry knows that that emails are the most effective.

Some strategies I’ve seen have a strong focus on quantity over quality, right. Because they think, ah, I need to post three times a day, five days a week just to keep up with the competition. Yeah. Yeah, look, I’ll be honest. I have seen that work in, in rare instances. But the purse, well, that particular business was extremely good at copywriting, right?

They actually, they were actually extremely connected with the exact hopes and dreams, pains, and fears of their audience. And so they’ve found it quite easy to create really high quality content. So that was an example of high quality and high quantity, but typically brands can’t do both typically it’s one or the other.

And so, you know, if you’re limited on time, which most business owners are, and you’re limited on funds, which you can, most business owners are. Try and think of, you know, one really, really cool, interesting posts that you can do a week, put some money behind it, right. It’s much better to go really high quality and low quantity.

Yeah, because if piece, if you’re just posting all the time, again, you’ll see like one, 0.1% of your audience, seeing that maximum go on

Carley: What channels are then working the best at the moment. So obviously since COVID a lot changed. So yeah, so for fashion startups, again, what channels should they really be?

Yeah. Working with.

Jesse: Okay. So we’ve, we’ve seen, so something quite interesting happen. I mean it is, we thought it was going to be dependent on countries but it seems to, I mean, it’s definitely affecting Australia and the US but essentially the cost of advertising on Facebook has gone up quite a lot.

So, we’re saying the cost per clicks, increase a fair amount. So it’s, that should become even more important to be that marketing scientists’ mindset to be really, really strategic and make sure that you’re getting the maximum value back from your ad spend. Yeah. It’s typically Facebook and Instagram, which, which, which you both advertise through from Facebook ad manager.

They are the lifeline for a lot of quality traffic, a lot of sales for, for fashion brands. And now more than ever, that needs to be really strategic, with the spend.

Carley: Okay. Great. Thank you. And yeah. So I guess for fashion startup fashion startup, starting out as a bit of a tongue twister, what would you say are some of the, the, the most common mistakes that you have heard or seen fashion brands do to hopefully stop people watching this, doing them?

Jesse: So it’s, it’s, it’s not being revenue focused. Right. So they will, they’ll focus on, on, on what’s known as vanity metrics, right? So, vanity metrics is essentially one that actually, doesn’t help you reach your end objective, which is to grow the business sustainably and profitably. So a classic about managing metric is focusing on number of Facebook likes focusing on number of Instagram followers, right?

That, they don’t pay the  bills. Right. Direct purchases do, is the revenue through the door does. So focus on that being your major objective, right. You, in fact, every, every business’s marketing objective should only be revenue at a good ROI. But that sentence should be embedded into every business owner.

Because it’s not just about revenue, because if you’re getting revenue at a bad ROI, I think you got it, then you’re going backwards. I have that as your major objective, then work backwards, and figure out what kind of goals you want to be setting achieving from that, some other, classic things is.

This is more prelaunch last basically like bit bit before the brands launched is that the business owner wants to have everything perfect. Right. They want everything to be, yeah, 100% ready before they launch. Don’t do that. It’s just, yeah. Nothing’s ever going to be perfect. I’d recommend reading up on minimum viable product modeling.

So MVP modeling that the time MVP is very, very popular for a reason that is about finding the most effective way to get a product out to your audience and the actual product itself, being the minimum viable product as well. You know, do you like, I’ll ask yourself as a brand owner, do I need

three full ranges at launch. Probably not like do I need, that many styles and that many items within my first range. Answering those questions, at the start and working out the best way to get the product launched and the most effective way and the quickest way without sacrificing value without sacrificing quality.

Its basically a common way to fail by, by, by not thinking about that.

Carley: Yeah, yeah. Too much. It’s good. Take it slow. And even again, there’s yeah. Fashion brands is quite a common thing for the word soft launch, and that’s pretty much what you’re talking about. So again, definitely knowing the audience, knowing your market.

Yeah, very smart. Jumping around a bit. So what would you say is like the best ever campaign you’ve ever seen? So do you have any tips around, like, what is a good campaign?

Jesse: It comes down to your value proposition, combined with your competitive advantage. So most people will focus on the value proposition alone, but the value proposition doesn’t always.

So if, if people really, really understand value propositions, then, then the two emerged, but typically business owners are thinking about, that competitive advantage. Because the value proposition is what you’re offering the customer, right , and why they’re going to value you and that the product you’re offering, but you have to stand out from the crowd.

You have to work, how, what makes you different. And that is honestly the single biggest, factor that, that we’ve seen between. A successful and a really bloody successful campaign. It’s, it’s, it’s all about yeah, that value proposition connecting with that audience mixed with, making sure that you are very different from the competitors.

Carley:  Yeah. Okay, great. Good tips. And, yeah. So I guess bringing it back to a bit of, a bit of the basics in a sense, the beginning for the startups, hopefully watching this. What would you say are the tools that they really need to invest in, like now from day one and just, yeah. Take, take your, put yourself in that position.

Like what would you encourage them to be doing now at the very beginning?

Jesse: So a few things, right? So, depending on budget, so for instance, with, with your CRM, which again, uses email marketing, which we’ve spoken about. Probably too much. But, but really, really important. So you’re either going to use MailChimp or, or we recommend ActiveCampaign.

So ActiveCampaign is like 80 US dollars a month. But that’s like; we found the best middle tier CRM out there. So if you have the budget invested in that because the things you can do with it are incredible, so you can have, for instance, you can set up interest funnels so if a customer comes on purchases.

They go into your CRM and set up, what’s known as an interest funnel. So if they then visit your website three times in the last three months, they’ll get flagged as they’re interested. If they visit your website six times in the last three months, they’re very interested, and they can send an automatic email.

And maybe don’t be creepy and say, we know you’ve been looking at us, but you can send them an email going, “Hey, have you seen our latest product?” Right. So for them, they don’t know why that’s coming, but from an engagement level, incredibly powerful. We’ve seen that work really, really well so if I was to invest in anything.

I’d definitely invest there. The other thing is making sure that your website, is extremely user friendly and mobile-friendly, right. And I’m making sure that it’s, that it’s mobile-friendly actually go through the whole experience. Start to finish as a user, go and purchase products, go through the whole process yourself, quality assess it properly

and in-depth, don’t cut corners with that. Because at the end of the day, you’re gonna be spending money and time, to bring traffic to your website, you’re gonna expect them to, to purchase something. But if it’s, if it’s at all cumbersome, if it’s at all, difficult or not fluid, they’re going to turn away.

Carley: Yeah. Couldn’t agree. More definitely. Fantastic tips. Thank you. And yeah. Would you, do you have any mentors or any reference points that you specifically have? Yeah. You look at or focus on that you could recommend?

Jesse: Yeah, look, so there’s basically your classic Neil Patel and Seth Godin, they’d been around for, for a long time

and they’re very popular for a reason. They’re like…well Seth Godin’s known as the godfather of content marketing, which is no small claim. And Neil Patel is extremely good at content marketing as well. But ultimately, I recommend taking a course. If you’ve never done marketing, if you try and learn as you go, you’re going to spend money, you’re going to waste money, get things wrong and, you know, Facebook

ad settings can be tricky. If you get something wrong, you can blow your budget very quickly while you can not set a budget and it can be spending money without you knowing it, which is even worse. I’ve seen that happen before. Well, I really, really like to help businesses, you know, which is why I’ve joined that with you to help you with, with your online course.

You know, so basically, I’ve given some, some much more in-depth analysis and tips and hints in the course around marketing, especially for fashion brands. So if I was going to recommend anything, I recommend your course.

Carley: Why thank you, Jesse. Very kind and yeah, for those watching, Ooze Studios has actually a featured in our six steps to launch a fashion brand course and yeah, you’ve, you’ve helped us out with the actual branding lessons through to

pre and post-marketing strategies, methods, all sources, so much content. So yeah, we greatly appreciate that, so thank you. And yeah. Thank you for taking the time to talk about, your passion. Is that data, is it marketing, it’s both for sure. And yeah, Ooze Studios is a fantastic digital agency, offering more than marketing.

So definitely go and check out their website. I will be posting it for everyone to see. So thank you so much, Jesse. And any last words for startups joining the entrepreneurship?

Jesse: Yeah, just one last thing. I’ve said it before, but I’m going to give it a different reference. So, evidence-based decisions incredibly important, not just with marketing, but we use at Ooze Studios throughout a whole business.

So we use it in everything from recruitment, through to operations to everything. So, so as you’re, as you’re going, for instance, the public example, as you’re going through the recruitment process, is the person you’re hiring are you basing it on a gut feeling or do they actually fundamentally meet the criteria of the job and ask yourself, is the criteria of the job that you’ve posted is that actually something that you can measure?

Right. So, if. If you put on, on a job must work well with others. How are you going to measure that in an interview process? Honestly.

Carley: Especially working from home. So while at the moment.

Jesse: Right? So really actually work out the actual criteria of the job and what you can actually, test, through the different methods available now with online recruitment.

And really hone in on making data-driven decisions, and that’s all the way, and that’s all the way across for organisations and brands.

Carley: Thank you so much for your time and that’s yeah, Jesse from Ooze Studios.

Jesse: Thank you very much, Carley. Have a good one audience.

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